|
|
Post by Zab Jade on May 31, 2018 20:09:51 GMT -8
This is a topic with a lot of different views to it. I, personally, love that Spike got his soul. At the same time, though, I tend to have no interest in stories where it's forced on him (with the exception of stories where he then loses it fairly quickly from being happy and is still accepted). To me, the fact that Spike was able to make the choice to fight for his soul is amazing. Some people see it as dismissing the growth he achieved without it, but I see it differently. To me, it's proof of his growth.
We all know soulless Angel's feelings about getting his soul. He killed to keep it from happening. Soulless Spike, though? He risked his life to fight for it. It's the ultimate expression of his growth. He didn't need the soul to be worthy of love and friendship, and the fact that he was able to fight for that soul is the proof of it. It added some depth to him, but he was ultimately still himself. Just himself with a deeper, richer flavor. Like adding coffee to chocolate ice cream.
|
|
|
|
Post by Turquoise (Ree) on Jun 1, 2018 12:30:55 GMT -8
I don't really like soul-less anyone, personally, and the vampires in my original stuff tend to still have theirs. I get the point, though, and realize that it can add drama to the Buffy series (badly written or otherwise).
Spike and Angel are pretty much opposites of each other, aren't they? Spike's more of a person with his and angel is less of one, somehow. It's a shame - had he been better written, he could have been a good and complex villain or tragic antihero, depending on where they wanted to go with him at the time.
|
|
|
|
Post by Zab Jade on Jun 1, 2018 12:39:49 GMT -8
My thought on Angel is that he's not really a complete person. Angel has a case of dissociative disorder. In most shows, that would mean he had manufactured the Angelus persona to unload his bad deeds on. Instead, he created Angel to be distanced from his past while still tormented by it. As a created persona, Angel just doesn't have the full range of features and emotions that Angelus does.
Spike, though, is a full person no matter who he is, despite the fact that he's always willing to change himself to be what his loved ones need.
|
|
|
|
Post by myrabeth on Jun 1, 2018 12:43:19 GMT -8
I think the drastically different responses to the soul come down to the demon's willingness to take it on. For Angel, it was a burden, a leash thrown around the neck of an unwilling demon. For Spike, it added more depth and thoughtfulness to a demon who had chosen to take that path, so the shift was barely noticeable by comparison.
For me as a writer, the soul isn't important. The willingness to change is. In some of my stories, that willingness is even expressed without the actual soul journey. Contrary to Angel's beliefs, a soul isn't a magic button to make you a better person. Becoming a better person is a choice to be made.
|
|
|
|
Post by Zab Jade on Jun 1, 2018 13:32:19 GMT -8
I agree with you there, Myra. The demon, who is still there in Angel, hates the soul. Spike welcomes and cherishes his. And it's the journey towards the soul, and the fact that he was able to go and risk his life to fight for it, that matter the most, even more than the soul. Kind of like how when getting a degree, it's the knowledge and expertise you gain that's important. The degree is just the proof of it and of all of your hard work.
So, I'm okay with stories where Spike never gets his soul, but it makes me sad when he loses it, especially if it's shrugged off as just not important.
|
|
|
|
Post by spindlekitten on Oct 12, 2018 13:26:23 GMT -8
Is there something about the level of humanity in the vampire, too? Angelus had zero humanity (so says the Judge) whereas Spike almost had too much. His humanity makes up somewhat for the lack of soul - allows him love and empathy.
I like souled Spike, but only when he chooses to get it, and when others appreciate what a massive deal it was for him.
Here's what (time travelling S7) Buffy has to say to Spike on the matter in my S6 fic:
“You know, I realised something. Right at the end, right when I understood that I loved you. I realised that you never needed the soul. I was so obsessed with the idea that without a soul it was impossible to do good that I found a way to discredit every good deed you did over the three years that you had the chip, and even before that - when you helped with Acathla.
“I never stopped to consider that a chipped Angelus would have had no problem finding a way to have my family and friends tortured and killed. I never acknowledged how hard you worked, despite my ridicule and violent contempt, to adjust to being a white hat. I only barely acknowledged that you resisted torture from a hell god to keep my sister safe.
“The soul brought you nothing but guilt and torment. It took away your pride and self confidence and it made you avoid violence. And despite the amazing fact that you and your demon chose to seek and fight for your soul back, nobody trusted you any more than they do now. Hell, Giles conspired to get you dusted.
|
|
|
|
Post by Zab Jade on Oct 13, 2018 0:22:13 GMT -8
Spindle, I have all kinds of head canon stuff about vampires, their level of humanity, and the effect it has on them. I'll probably ramble about it chat since that allows for a better back and forth discussion.
|
|
darcygall
Watcher/Pearl
Head of Tourism
Posts: 28
|
Post by darcygall on Nov 3, 2018 9:02:05 GMT -8
I like the soul. Or at least, I like that he chose to fight for it. Though I do think he sought it out for all the wrong reasons.
Even better though, I like it best when Buffy realizes that a demon who would fight for his soul never really needed one in the first place.
|
|
|
|
Post by Zab Jade on Nov 3, 2018 13:35:07 GMT -8
Darcygall, you'd probably like the Far to Go series (my Spuffy series that starts with Thursday's Child), then. It has a better reason for Spike getting his soul and Buffy realizing that he can be good without it.
|
|
darcygall
Watcher/Pearl
Head of Tourism
Posts: 28
|
Post by darcygall on Nov 19, 2018 11:40:00 GMT -8
It's waiting for me on my Kobo Zab! I've been too focused on writing to read anything but the odd update on stories I'm following! I swear I'll get to it soon! I'm dying to swamp you with comments filled with nothing but flailing! Well, and hopefully the odd insightful remark. Heh!
|
|
|
|
Post by blackoberst on Feb 16, 2019 4:03:25 GMT -8
The fact that the demon chose the soul is incredible. Was it necessary? Maybe, maybe not. It's true that the 'soulless' Spike would still have done evil out of sheer indifference, whereas the soul gives him a better compass as to what is and should be important as a 'white hat.' He didn't need it for Buffy, he needed it for himself as the next step on his journey to being a champion.
|
|
