Post by Zab Jade on Mar 31, 2019 22:52:04 GMT -8
So, Myrabeth and I were in the chat room discussing siblings in the Buffyverse and then ended up talking about William's possible social standing. Here are some snippets from that conversation.
myrabeth Today at 10:41 PM
there are too many only children in the Buffyverse over all, but Liam having only one sibling and William having none are by far the worst offenses
Zab Today at 10:42 PM
It'll likely never come up in any of my stories, but I think it's possible Liam had other siblings. Ones that died or who had actually gone off to make something of themselves.
He was nearly 30, and I think his sister was an older teen. So room for siblings between them.
myrabeth Today at 10:42 PM
Liam reads like a second or third son, if you look at his relationship with his dad
Zab Today at 10:43 PM
That's what I thought at first, but then was thinking maybe he'd be allowed to do all that shit because he's the heir. Could go either way.
One thing that has always baffled me is those who think Liam's dad was abusive. He stopped him from raping the maid and called him on his shitty behavior. That's not abuse.
myrabeth Today at 10:44 PM
Liam was supposedly 27, Cathy looked to have been around 14 to me. Even if Liam is first born and Cathy is last, there's a lot of room in the middle
Liam's dad was understandably frustrated, but also terrified he'd never see his kid again when Liam walked out. He was probably a good dad. he just had an awful son
Zab Today at 10:46 PM
Yep. And he actually seemed too lenient with Liam to me.
Especially for that time period.
myrabeth Today at 10:47 PM
he probably was, for too many years. when he realized he'd been too lax, it was too late. Lends credence to your spoiled heir theory
Zab Today at 10:48 PM
Spoiled heir who had rivalries with all of his siblings except the youngest. Either because she was the only girl, or because he was old enough to just not see her as a threat when she was born.
The other kids went off to live their own lives, but Liam stayed, in part because he'd be inheriting.
myrabeth Today at 10:51 PM
I can definitely see her as the only girl. Maybe 2 successful brothers in the middle?
I wouldn't trust Liam with a sister near his own age, if you get my drift
Zab Today at 10:53 PM
Yeah.
And even with Kathy, it could have gotten creepy if he'd lived much longer. Assuming it wasn't already.
myrabeth Today at 10:54 PM
assumes, for her sake
Zab Today at 10:55 PM
With William, you have to figure out why he was the only child there for his mother. Could be that he was the oldest living son, and thus he was in charge of everything and taking care of her.
Older or younger sisters would have likely been off taking care of their own households.
myrabeth Today at 10:56 PM
I tend to assume a sole survivor thing with him.
Zab Today at 10:57 PM
*nods* Same. I give him two sisters (one older, one younger) who both died of pneumonia, along with their father.
myrabeth Today at 10:57 PM
how long was Anne sick? long enough that it cut short her "healthy enough for baby-baking" years? How long was she widowed? in that society, she would have been expected to remarry. Why didn't she?
i think she got sick young enough that she ended up with a small family, lost her husband and all but one kid (all at once or in separate illnesses), and stayed single because (a) had TB and (b) most of the money sustaining her household didn't come from her husband's family, but from hers and/or whatever money William was making
Zab Today at 11:01 PM
My personal head canon is that she got a bit of money from the Watchers' Council after aging out and was set up as her Watcher's niece before then.
had the head canon that Anne started out as a street child and was a potential
myrabeth Today at 11:02 PM
we're also left with the impression they had fallen down in the world financially, like William was of a higher social standing in his earlier years. That could simply be because Anne was widowed, and the household income went down, or those two events could be unrelated
they seemed to barely be clinging on to the societal rung they were on
myrabeth Today at 11:04 PM
I never thought she was a street kid, exactly, but I've always thought she came from a lower class than what she married into. That may contribute to the way William was seen by society.
Zab Today at 11:05 PM
High up enough that he had to be invited to the parties, but low enough that he could safely be used as the butt of jokes and made fun of.
myrabeth Today at 11:06 PM
yeah, he was right on the edges of his peer group.
Zab Today at 11:07 PM
Which was a high enough group that he could get away with using his left hand to write and talking to other people's servants as if they were equals.
myrabeth Today at 11:08 PM
here's the thing: if he didn't have a lower class mother and/or a slim bank account, he would have been seen as a catch by at least someone in his class. The artsy types rarely stay single
but he was rolling into his late 20s with no prospects.
Zab Today at 11:09 PM
There is a family in the noble class with the family name Pratt. He could have been a branch from there, but his mother's low status made him undesirable.
myrabeth Today at 11:10 PM
there's a little joke Joss threw in, that has some big implications if considered seriously: he referred to Anne's doctor by name. Dr. Gull
Dr. Gull was one of the more ridiculous Jack the Ripper suspects. And also Queen Victoria's personal physician.
that's my headcanon, too.
So if we take the Dr. Gull line seriously, Anne Pratt was sharing a doctor with the freakin' Queen.
Zab Today at 11:14 PM
Which would be possible if William's father was in the Pratt family that was nobility.
And probably means that he did have money. Just not enough status within his personal social circles. Though some men didn't typically marry until around 30.
myrabeth Today at 11:18 PM
there is a possible middle ground. A family name with history and titles, and a fortune that has fallen in the last generation or so. Possibly even more recently, That would get your foot in the door at high class parties, let you keep your upper crust address and doctor, but everyone would know you aren't worth a quarter of what your dad or grandad was
Zab Today at 11:18 PM
That makes sense.
And even if the decline had just started and wasn't too bad, everyone know the decline was there, and wouldn't trust someone like William to be able to bring things back up.
myrabeth Today at 11:20 PM
yup
say his dad only died ten years ago, and things hadn't picked up after William finished school. Everyone in their tier of society is going to know it
Zab Today at 11:22 PM
And no one is going to want to throw in with what looks to be a sinking ship, even if it's only taken on an inch of water so far.
myrabeth Today at 11:23 PM
not if there are other options for marrying off their daughters, even if those titles aren't quite as high. A guy on the rise is a better bet, over all
Does anyone else have any thoughts and opinions on all of that? Feel free to share them. You don't have to be a member to reply to posts, though if you aren't a member, we'd love to have you as one.
myrabeth Today at 10:41 PM
there are too many only children in the Buffyverse over all, but Liam having only one sibling and William having none are by far the worst offenses
Zab Today at 10:42 PM
It'll likely never come up in any of my stories, but I think it's possible Liam had other siblings. Ones that died or who had actually gone off to make something of themselves.
He was nearly 30, and I think his sister was an older teen. So room for siblings between them.
myrabeth Today at 10:42 PM
Liam reads like a second or third son, if you look at his relationship with his dad
Zab Today at 10:43 PM
That's what I thought at first, but then was thinking maybe he'd be allowed to do all that shit because he's the heir. Could go either way.
One thing that has always baffled me is those who think Liam's dad was abusive. He stopped him from raping the maid and called him on his shitty behavior. That's not abuse.
myrabeth Today at 10:44 PM
Liam was supposedly 27, Cathy looked to have been around 14 to me. Even if Liam is first born and Cathy is last, there's a lot of room in the middle
Liam's dad was understandably frustrated, but also terrified he'd never see his kid again when Liam walked out. He was probably a good dad. he just had an awful son
Zab Today at 10:46 PM
Yep. And he actually seemed too lenient with Liam to me.
Especially for that time period.
myrabeth Today at 10:47 PM
he probably was, for too many years. when he realized he'd been too lax, it was too late. Lends credence to your spoiled heir theory
Zab Today at 10:48 PM
Spoiled heir who had rivalries with all of his siblings except the youngest. Either because she was the only girl, or because he was old enough to just not see her as a threat when she was born.
The other kids went off to live their own lives, but Liam stayed, in part because he'd be inheriting.
myrabeth Today at 10:51 PM
I can definitely see her as the only girl. Maybe 2 successful brothers in the middle?
I wouldn't trust Liam with a sister near his own age, if you get my drift
Zab Today at 10:53 PM
Yeah.
And even with Kathy, it could have gotten creepy if he'd lived much longer. Assuming it wasn't already.
myrabeth Today at 10:54 PM
assumes, for her sake
Zab Today at 10:55 PM
With William, you have to figure out why he was the only child there for his mother. Could be that he was the oldest living son, and thus he was in charge of everything and taking care of her.
Older or younger sisters would have likely been off taking care of their own households.
myrabeth Today at 10:56 PM
I tend to assume a sole survivor thing with him.
Zab Today at 10:57 PM
*nods* Same. I give him two sisters (one older, one younger) who both died of pneumonia, along with their father.
myrabeth Today at 10:57 PM
how long was Anne sick? long enough that it cut short her "healthy enough for baby-baking" years? How long was she widowed? in that society, she would have been expected to remarry. Why didn't she?
i think she got sick young enough that she ended up with a small family, lost her husband and all but one kid (all at once or in separate illnesses), and stayed single because (a) had TB and (b) most of the money sustaining her household didn't come from her husband's family, but from hers and/or whatever money William was making
Zab Today at 11:01 PM
My personal head canon is that she got a bit of money from the Watchers' Council after aging out and was set up as her Watcher's niece before then.
had the head canon that Anne started out as a street child and was a potential
myrabeth Today at 11:02 PM
we're also left with the impression they had fallen down in the world financially, like William was of a higher social standing in his earlier years. That could simply be because Anne was widowed, and the household income went down, or those two events could be unrelated
they seemed to barely be clinging on to the societal rung they were on
myrabeth Today at 11:04 PM
I never thought she was a street kid, exactly, but I've always thought she came from a lower class than what she married into. That may contribute to the way William was seen by society.
Zab Today at 11:05 PM
High up enough that he had to be invited to the parties, but low enough that he could safely be used as the butt of jokes and made fun of.
myrabeth Today at 11:06 PM
yeah, he was right on the edges of his peer group.
Zab Today at 11:07 PM
Which was a high enough group that he could get away with using his left hand to write and talking to other people's servants as if they were equals.
myrabeth Today at 11:08 PM
here's the thing: if he didn't have a lower class mother and/or a slim bank account, he would have been seen as a catch by at least someone in his class. The artsy types rarely stay single
but he was rolling into his late 20s with no prospects.
Zab Today at 11:09 PM
There is a family in the noble class with the family name Pratt. He could have been a branch from there, but his mother's low status made him undesirable.
myrabeth Today at 11:10 PM
there's a little joke Joss threw in, that has some big implications if considered seriously: he referred to Anne's doctor by name. Dr. Gull
Dr. Gull was one of the more ridiculous Jack the Ripper suspects. And also Queen Victoria's personal physician.
that's my headcanon, too.
So if we take the Dr. Gull line seriously, Anne Pratt was sharing a doctor with the freakin' Queen.
Zab Today at 11:14 PM
Which would be possible if William's father was in the Pratt family that was nobility.
And probably means that he did have money. Just not enough status within his personal social circles. Though some men didn't typically marry until around 30.
myrabeth Today at 11:18 PM
there is a possible middle ground. A family name with history and titles, and a fortune that has fallen in the last generation or so. Possibly even more recently, That would get your foot in the door at high class parties, let you keep your upper crust address and doctor, but everyone would know you aren't worth a quarter of what your dad or grandad was
Zab Today at 11:18 PM
That makes sense.
And even if the decline had just started and wasn't too bad, everyone know the decline was there, and wouldn't trust someone like William to be able to bring things back up.
myrabeth Today at 11:20 PM
yup
say his dad only died ten years ago, and things hadn't picked up after William finished school. Everyone in their tier of society is going to know it
Zab Today at 11:22 PM
And no one is going to want to throw in with what looks to be a sinking ship, even if it's only taken on an inch of water so far.
myrabeth Today at 11:23 PM
not if there are other options for marrying off their daughters, even if those titles aren't quite as high. A guy on the rise is a better bet, over all
Does anyone else have any thoughts and opinions on all of that? Feel free to share them. You don't have to be a member to reply to posts, though if you aren't a member, we'd love to have you as one.
