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Ratings
Oct 23, 2018 21:29:41 GMT -8
Post by Zab Jade on Oct 23, 2018 21:29:41 GMT -8
I know of at least two fanfiction archives that don't go with this, but the use of movie ratings for fanfics is fairly common. I've always thought that was kind of weird. I was actually working at a bookstore when I discovered the online community of fanfiction (I'd been writing for my own enjoyment in notebooks for years before then). None of our stuff was giving "ratings". We had the kids books in their own areas and YA stuff, and kids weren't allowed to buy the Play Boy or Play Girl magazines (both pretty much exclusively bought by men. Musta been some darn good "articles" in those Play Girl's. ), but other than all that and genre, there was no separation of things based on content. If a kid came in and tried to buy a book about a bunch of lesbian vampires where there was graphic sex along with one character being completely devoured by another and pooped out as a miniature version of herself, then they'd be allowed to. I don't remember if I ever sold such a book, but I did in fact buy one with that in it when I was about fourteen. Now, an online archive of user uploaded content is a different thing from a bookstore. There can be ratings and ways to make sure that the people who are reading are old enough to handle what they're about to read. I don't think that the movie ratings are the way to go, however, since film and the written word are different mediums. I tend to prefer things like General, Teen, and Explicit. Maybe with something else thrown in there between Teen and Explicit. I also don't think that explicit content should be locked away. By all means, make sure people know it's there with a listed rating and a pop-up just in case they clicked without really paying attention, but you should never have to log in to a site just to read stories of a certain rating. Anyone else have any thoughts and feelings on it all?
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Ratings
Oct 24, 2018 1:38:07 GMT -8
Post by stuffandnonsense on Oct 24, 2018 1:38:07 GMT -8
I think having a rating system is important in fanfic-land because the content of the show/books/etc does not necessarily reflect the content of the fic - a lot of fanfic is straight up porn, and having an easy way to distinguish between interesting plot continuations of a finished series, porn, and both is a Good Thing. I'm not particularly wedded to film ratings, but they are something most people recognise and understand. I think ffnet has Gen-Teen-Mature and then Explicit is meant to be on adult-ffnet? I am still never really sure about whether I get the ratings right on anything I write, no matter what system is being used. But I have some sympathy for mods/admins who opt for an existing scale most people are already familiar with.
I wouldn't lock away explicit content personally, but I suspect there's some real legal fears behind doing it. I know there are NSFW bloggers on tumblr who come under attack when under-18s get into their feeds - or I assume so, given how often I see "please unfollow me if you are under 18". I don't think the rules about 'not selling porn to minors' have quite adapted to free internet content yet, and the very clear direction of travel legally is to blame the platform when younger people see explicit things. Having a sign-in at least means the platform has a very clear and easy comeback to accusations of peddling porn to kids.
I tend to be much more permissive of young people being interested in sex, though. I've been socialised with an age of consent of 15/16, and I have known a lot of very sexually active people at around that age, Both when they were my peers and afterwards. Some folks are ready early, others not until much later. Don't get me wrong, I think having the laws is necessary and important, I just don't think they set a moral imperative. It's a bit like running a red light at 4am when you can see for miles in every direction - it's still illegal, but I think you"d struggle to argue it was harmful or dangerous.
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Ratings
Oct 24, 2018 2:52:31 GMT -8
Post by Zab Jade on Oct 24, 2018 2:52:31 GMT -8
Having a rating system is definitely important, I just don't think the movie rating one is the best option. It's set up for a completely different medium, after all. With the pop up idea, readers have to acknowledge that they're okay with reading adult content before they can read said content. I think that's the setup AO3 has for when you aren't logged in, and was what ff.net did before The Great Purge. So, it has protections in place that let you read without having to create an account and login to read. Once you're logged in, neither AO3 nor sites that force a login actually do anything to make sure you noticed the rating, so it could be argued that a popup is more likely to cover the ass of the archive than a forced login.
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Ratings
Oct 24, 2018 5:50:09 GMT -8
Post by myrabeth on Oct 24, 2018 5:50:09 GMT -8
A forced log in cannot possibly create more legal cover than a pop up that puts the rating of the story in the reader's face before every single read. I view the forced log in as a means of making the community less welcoming to newbies and lurkers, while simultaneously forcing an artificial inflation of membership numbers.
Of course, in an age of efficient pop-up blockers that may only give you a notice in a corner of your screen that something nearly popped up, rather than showing it to you, an interstitial "This story is intended for X age range audiences. Do not proceed if you are below that age." screen between selecting a story and seeing the first of the content is the smarter move. I personally feel that would be more effective, and would also be a benefit to adults. I don't always notice the rating on a story before I click, and having it pointed out to me before I begin reading would be welcome.
As for the rating themselves, the movie system is designed (in the States, at least) around the idea that even one moment of nudity or one too many curse words should force the rating up a tier, which makes it sound less like it's about informing the audience than it is about being ridiculously paranoid about lawsuits. The movie rating system can give the same rating to a comedy with one too many raunchy jokes, an action adventure flick with one too many f-bombs, and a romance that is packed full of sex scenes that were filmed with extremely careful camera angles. In other words, it's useless.
I generally classify my stories as "R" because I believe that without TV censors in play, our beloved characters would express themselves more colorfully (curse words) in moments of stress (most of the time, for them) and I like to be free to write that way. And then I get chastised by readers for not showing sex scenes (only the lead in), because the rating made them think they'd get a bit of light porn. The movies system clearly doesn't work for fanfic any better than it does for film.
Rather than ratings, maybe the interstitial screen I recommended above should simply list the "possibly offensive content" and recommend a minimum age for reading, based on a prudish point of view. What EF lists as "warnings," should not supplement a rating system that doesn't work. It should REPLACE it.
Of course, it would need to be fine-tuned, as EF's system is borderline useless, as well. "Sexual situations" is incredibly vague. To me, that reads as anything from "you may see mostly clothed foreplay" to "settle in for some explicitly described porn." A content listing system should have at least 3 options for sex scenes (not-well-thought-out examples: mild, moderate, explicit), as well as stuff for rape, incest, violence, foul language, etc. A list of at most ten content descriptors for authors to select from, that comes with an age-based recommendation would be a simple and safe system. Something like "Gen, Teen, Mature," would work in concept for the age recs, but worded differently, as lit geared toward "teens" has different connotations to different readers, and may put people off who are well clear of that demographic.
I know I'm rambling, but I'm figuring this out as I type, imagining how I'd operate it if it were my own multi-author archive, if I were an admin of a site like EF. It would take some thought to get it right. I think simple, clear descriptors that don't rely on film-based cultural touchstones -displayed on an interstitial screen between EVERY story selection click and its content, along with the opportunity to reread the summary- would be the way to go, an easy way to strike a balance between the fact that a fanfic archive is much like a bookstore, and the unfortunate fact that unsupervised minors can click on anything.
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Ratings
Oct 24, 2018 10:46:58 GMT -8
Post by Zab Jade on Oct 24, 2018 10:46:58 GMT -8
I like the idea of an interstitial screen reminding people of what they're getting into. I think that might be what it is for AO3 if you aren't logged in. It should probably be there for members who are logged in, too. It can get annoying, but it does make sure you really do know what you clicked on.
It being a sort of secondary summary page is also good, since that would be a little less annoying for adults while still covering the butts of the archive.
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Ratings
Oct 24, 2018 11:46:27 GMT -8
Post by spindlekitten on Oct 24, 2018 11:46:27 GMT -8
I definitely think the movie ratings are vague and mostly useless for films, let alone to rate fanfic. It is especially awkward for me because the sites use US ratings which are different to the UK ratings and so I have even less of an idea what to do. Mostly, I err on the side of higher ratings but this can equally frustrate readers as Myra pointed out, and they still don't work to stop younger people reading things.
I think Myra's suggestion of a warning page before you start the fic makes a lot of sense. Pop-ups don't work because most people block them anyway and fic ratings are easily overlooked even if they weren't crazily difficult to define in the first place. A list of warnings covering violence, sex and other triggers (with varying levels and prudish age guide) would be a much better way to check if the fic has what you want to read.
I agree about your point that bookshops don't differentiate the age of the readers, Zab, but if having a clear age and content warnings are needed to keep the archives safe from litigation, then an updated fanfic-appropriate clearly understood (by both reader and author) rating system should be used.
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Ratings
Oct 24, 2018 13:13:39 GMT -8
Post by Zab Jade on Oct 24, 2018 13:13:39 GMT -8
I do think it's a good idea to have some kind of rating/age guide sort of thing. Like I said in my original post, an online archive is a little different from an actual bookstore. For one thing, you generally don't pay to read the stories. The parent having to pay for the book basically covers the butt of the bookstores. The movie ratings, though, just don't work.
For one thing, a written sex scene is different from a viewed one. A younger person reading it isn't going to be able to completely visualize what's going on since they wouldn't know how certain things look. But seeing it would, of course, be seeing it.
In regards to "sexual situations" having a huge amount of ground to cover, I'm reminded of something from back when I first entered the world of fanfiction. It used to be that some stories were listed as being limes or lemons. For a little bit, I would skip anything labeled as a lemon, because I thought it was using the term like when talking about a car. So I always wondered why people were hosting fics they thought were terrible. XD But then I learned better. A lime is a mild sex scene. Heavy petting, kissing, and making out that fades to black or full on sex that just doesn't give a lot of detail. A lemon contains full on porn scenes. Though that's not really a great system, since there are a lot of sort in-between situations. There needs to be more fruit.
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Ratings
Nov 5, 2018 15:18:53 GMT -8
Post by Zab Jade on Nov 5, 2018 15:18:53 GMT -8
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